Hate the sin, not the sinner.

Agree or disagree?

I don't know how to answer that as it has depended on the total story and the circumstances around the actions, as well as the general character of the person.

nucky,
i don't believe in 'sin' as it is commonly defined. i believe in people doing what comes from their principles, or their negligence, or their intelligence. if someone runs into someone else on the highway, and kills them, and the person who did the running into is drunk, imo, they are stupid, a killer, and negligent. they are a complete waste of oxygen. i don't hate them; i'd be more than glad to throw the switch on them in the electric chair, or push the plunger on the 'go to sleep permanent' needle, though..i don't, frankly, hate anyone...in order for the world to run well, we don't need an idea of 'be nice and behave responsibly because someone up there is watching', we need 'be nice and behave responsibly or the rest of us will send you to infinity'....lol! no need for hate at all....

reb

I was gonna say something similar to what reb said. Reb you always have to beat me to the punch. When I hear the word sin I think religion, and I have never really been a religious person.

I would have to say that in general I hate the actions more, but it is the people on this Earth that make the those things happen, and there are people on this Earth that are just mean, nasty individuals. There aren't a lot of them. I mean I believe 85% of the people in this world are good people and I trust them until they give me a reason not to, but there are a small number of people that are just bad and it would be naive IMO to think otherwise.

Probably not a surprise, but this is a core belief for me. While it's true, I sometimes have trouble fathoming the evil some people are capable of committing, I always separate the person from the sin, crime, evil-doing, whatever you want to call it. I know people who have molested children, murdered others, etc..., and while I probably would not invite them into my home, I respect that they are living humans, just as I am.

Little_Sister wrote:Probably not a surprise, but this is a core belief for me. While it's true, I sometimes have trouble fathoming the evil some people are capable of committing, I always separate the person from the sin, crime, evil-doing, whatever you want to call it. I know people who have molested children, murdered others, etc..., and while I probably would not invite them into my home, I respect that they are living humans, just as I am.

I would agree with you on that too lil sis. I am strongly against the death penalty.

Hate the sin, not the sinner.

That's like saying, hate the murder but not the murderer. Um, nope, I don't think that's right.

Logan wrote:

Hate the sin, not the sinner.

That's like saying, hate the murder but not the murderer. Um, nope, I don't think that's right.

What? You think hate's right?

I guess we'll have to respectfully disagree. For me, I am certain that not only do I not hate the murderer, I need to love the murderer. I believe beyond a shadow of doubt that that is the only way to combat evil in the world.

So, yes, I believe, hate the murder, but love the murderer.

We can respectfully disagree. I think that sometimes, such as in the case of a murder, that the action automatically draws hate from us, with it being a subconscious thing. Yes? I think so.

Must it be one or the other? I would not love the murderer, but I would not hate him or her either.

Some acts are heinious enough that they can't be forgiven; such as sustained ongoing violent child abuse. After seeing what it does to a person, I can't forgive the people who inflicted the abuse. But it doesn't mean I hate them either.

melodiccolor wrote:Must it be one or the other? I would not love the murderer, but I would not hate him or her either.

Some acts are heinious enough that they can't be forgiven; such as sustained ongoing violent child abuse. After seeing what it does to a person, I can't forgive the people who inflicted the abuse. But it doesn't mean I hate them either.

Melodic,

When I say, "Love," it's not necessarily an emotional response. Because honestly, I'm probably feeling something akin to horror in the case of murder, child abuse, etc..., but simply acknowledging somewhere in my mind that the person who committed the act, is indeed a living, breathing fellow being.

It's just that some of those living breathing fellow beings are capable of great cruelty and harm.....even as they are capable of good in their lives at the same time.

I can't love them in the abstract the way you do; I feel the pain they leave in their wake, the horror quite directly. It affects me deeply to feel the pain of their victims and leaves little empathy for the person who inflicts it.

i KNOW i'm weird, so all y'all don't gotta remind me. i can 'love them as another piece of sentient matter in this wonderful universe', and throw the switch on them at the same time....they don't belong here with the rest of us, unless you want to go on a long, tangled illogical trail of 'we learn lessons from the evil ones and what they do' . having been the victim of sufficient violence in my life, i have tried 'loving them' in more than the abstract, and it doesn't work for me...i understand they 'have something wrong with them'; i throw broken dishes in the trash....to do otherwise doesn't strike me as sensible.

the efficient thing is to do away with them; don't put them up in special 'boxes' and feed them for 40 years; don't 'slap their wrists' and let them back on the streets....just terminate them; let their 'spark' go back from whence it came. don't gotta hate; don't gotta love if you don't wanna...it's all choice...i choose peace, even if i have to fight to get it....lol!

reb

Naw, Reb, you're not weird, or at least any weirder than the rest of us.

I just can't throw the switch, but then, I know I'm just an impossible idealist. And what if you're wrong? In the days before DNA evidence, there were plenty of errors made, and you can't fix that once the switch is thrown.

well, if i'm wrong, i'm wrong. once in awhile, we throw the baby out with the bathwater...i've done it personally, thinking someone had wronged me, when they hant....

what i think is awful is to put someone, who dint commit any crime, in a cage with a bunch of sociopaths for 20 years (like the guy they just let out that was on the news-dna freed him). to me, for me, i would rather get the needle or the chair asap-i thought there was a law that says that justice should be 'speedy and swift', not take forever, and have a million appeals...i'm not going to any cages. the things that happen in those places are hideous-i've known and employed too many cons, and known too many cops...prison is the terrible error. if someone has wrong another bad enough to go to jail for 20 + years, then we ought to be merciful, and kill 'em. how do any of you feel about these people who lock up dogs, and just let 'em out to fight? or who have horses that are not taken care of? this is about how the prison systems are, and they are breeding more serious gang problems, too....

i'd rather be dead, and would so choose, if they tried to lock me up. if they kill me by mistake, then i don't care...a no knock warrant could do it....they've done it elsewhere...not upset in the least by the possibility; but i would be enraged and scared to death to get locked up in huntsville....had a friend go to stillwater; hedint like it...lol! he was a little guy, and had to go around talking shit to himself to keep the big uns off him-made 'em think he was nuts, he did....sad tale...

i was thinking about this today....there are those of us who feel that everyone has a right to live, no matter what (even if they are locked up eternally), and those of us who feel, if they are a recidivist, then we should kill them in the most humane way possible....that's the basic difference, i think....when i kill a critter, i do it with a brain shot, almost without exception. they don't know what hit 'em if i use the right tool for the job...this is humane, imo; injecting lab rats with cancer causing crap is not....same difference with people, i think....
reb

I'm in two minds about this.
The impossible idealist who believes implicently in every one's right to live, no matter what. It's not about love or hate, it just is.
And then there's the avenging maniac in me, who would personally kill any one who touched me or anyone I cared about, if justice and the law didn't prevail. Fortantly the avenging meniac has very slow fuse.
Don't get me wrong I'm not some screwed up vigilante, and if the time ever comes I hope my head wins over my heart. I would have to be pushed to the very brink, and I happen to think generally karma happens.
Personally I'm indifferent to those who commit crimes.
I did know a guy who murdered some one. It was extremely unfortunate circumstances...and if you knew both parties involved. Let just say I didn't think justice or careful examination of the facts occured. I had seen the man murdered drive the most saintly, and patient of souls to extreme actions. My poor friend, through stupidity, and extremely ill chance, didn't have a chance. He paid a very high price for a careless mistake. I can't help but think Reb's idea, might have spared him the pain. He was only seventeen.

All,

i guess i would support something like this as an idea (although Britain has already tried it in the 18th and 19th centuries- and hybrid vigor created two monsters)....put the serious criminals (child molesters, murderers, rapists, etc.) on an island. patrol it to see they don't ever get off. let them figure out their own destiny and their own society (ever read 'lord of the flies'? lol!).

as i say, Britain tried this, and i guess it dint work due to the convicts escaping (lol!); and we can't even seal our borders against 'who knows who', so maybe my idea is pie in the sky...i think a bullet in the brain is cheaper than a lot of alternatives, and more humane than lifetime or long term lockup, but i'm a dreamer....obviously, 'society'-the grand mass of collective neuroses that we call that-can't deal with what it has now.....i don't know why i think about these things...really a waste of my brain time....

reb

Hmmm; we seem to have wandered slightly off topic; but it is closely related. I have always been conflicted about the death penalty. Some people have committed acts so henious that they deserve to die.

But then I wonder about the cost to society; the cost to those who must participate in that execution.

First of all, there is the monetary costs; all the steps and appeals and legal procedures; the extra secure facitlities with separate quarters for them; it costs more for this than to just incarcerate for life.

Then, in spite of all those costs and procedures, innocent people do sometimes still get executed.

This does damage, not only to the wrongly accused, but also to anyone involved with that case, including all staff at the prison and the executioners themselves and the witnesses.

We as a society are harmed every time we condone the legal killing of another person, unless it was to directly save another life.

If someone is locked up, at least if they are innocent, then they have the hope of freedom and restitution. If they are guilty, they deserve what they get. Those that would otherwise be on death row should be in max security for life prison with the option to commit suicide if they so choose. No chance of parole, ever.

mel,

apart from 'innocent or guilty', what are the costs for lifetime incarceration....say from 30 until the life expectancy of 75 or so for males, vs. the cost of executing one 'felony' criminal in texas? ca. don't do it, so i don't think you can get figgers from there...

as far as throwing the switch, it isn't going to bother me if i see evidence this individual killed a mother and two kids, or raped a woman at knifepoint, or molested a child like that ____ in florida did that little girl he buried alive afterward...i could do it, and not look back. if others have some 'emotional cost', i don't see how anyone can measure that against the cost to society of continuing to let these people go (and they DO get out frequently).

show me some numbers, please?

reb

You're welcome to blackle or google those facts; I have read them a few times but don't have the exact figures off the top of my head.

In CA, you have the full cost of incarceration, plus all the legal costs of endless appeals that are paid for by the state plus the extra costs of keeping the death row prisoners separated from the extra high security prisoners plus they get the best medical care (insane!). If you just made it life with no option of parole and mean no parole under any circumstances, you'd eleminate the legal costs, extra incarceration costs and extra medical costs. So instead of a+b+c+d= total bill; you'd just have a=total bill to the state.

People get "unjust" death sentences all the time, death penalty or not. They die on the highway, or in the hospital, or whatever. Death is a part of life. It's not a necessary evil, it's a real, legitimate and necessary part of living.

But back on the original question, I've pretty much found myself unable to "hate the sinner" in face to face situations. If that person is within my field of view and I can feel them, in most cases what happens is that I feel sad about what they've become. (When my own anger is raised, or another strong emotion takes hold of me, my perspective changes, but since I see those feelings as somewhat transitory I'm ignoring them for now.) When they're a news item however it's a whole different ball game.

Abstract people - people I don't know and have never met - I can hate quite easily. And I don't think I'm alone in this. Generally, people who hate others do so when they aren't there, and reserve their pure hatred for groups of people they don't personally know. That's the essence of racism in my opinion. If people allow themselves to know others it simply ceases to exist as hate. Dislike - sure. Disapproval - sure. But pure hate - no.

I don't know how anyone could not hate a murderer.

mel,

#s? what are the #s....this is what you said i did to YOU! lol! tell me to google...lol!

what's to keep them from appealing their 'life sentence' and costing the taxpayer just as much? nothing. either we have to remove the long appeal process, do like sheriff joe, or some other alternative. if cost is completely disregarded, which it always is in the government, then i KNOW that a dead criminal WILL NOT COMMIT ANOTHER CRIME in this current life. that's all i need or want to know to support the death penalty. no one in goverment intends to do shat about criminals, anyway. they're too busy trying to figure out how to fleece any of us who have any money left.....

reb

Interesting to see we seem to be 50:50 on this poll...

I rarely 'hate' people, & if so, usually only for 'a brief moment' until the anger calms down...

Citrine, if I focused on hating all murderers & such, this would be extremely exhausting for me... I try to see at least a spark of good that everyone has inside them... & the wider picture... & by 'everyone' I mean Hitler & such too... Yes, he did terrible things... I still think there might have been a tiny spark of good in him, & what he did made the rest of Europe realize how bad occupation & war is... & also helped do away with British colonies so nations there could become more independent... So I try to focus on the 'good'... Because it is easier for me, & the only way not to go crazy...

I see a lot of good people do bad things, occasionally.. Out of lack of knowledge, or just having a rough day, or whatever... It is usually people closest to me that bring out the 'hate' because they nag me excessively or something... Yes I would probably hate a murderer for doing what he did if someone close to me was involved... At least for some time... But I would also try to find forgiveness in my heart & move on & be free... (Because by hating excessively & in a prologed time you only 'bind' yourself to the negative...At least that's the way I see it..)

Then think about all the companies/politicians/individuals killing people slowly... Through selling/marketing unhealthy food, poisons in everyday objects... Am I gonna have to 'hate' now all of them too...? Some may be just good people thinking they're just doing their job... Yes, it can get mind-boggling sometimes...

And also, you said 'more admiration to the military' in another thread... Well, military, in its essence, are trained 'murderers' too... I do respect the soldiers & appreciate what they're doing & have done, especially when it comes to protecting the innocent/attacked... but often military is not used for this, but for attack/dubious interests... I do not see occupation of another country as justified... My country was occupied in WWII & apparently we didn't like it much

So... Definitions of 'murderer' (or 'sinner') may vary... I agree some crimes may be more hideous than others... Spending lots of money on a 'hotel' for bad crooks does not seem to make sense... but I agree that mistakes have often been made & I personally think 20 years in jail when innocent & being alive & finally free when you get out may still be better than just 'ending it' like Reb says... (I'm not a very outdoorsy person so in the end if I had access to books & such it would probably somehow be 'survivable'...) But I guess we are all different... & I guess prisons here are also very much different from those overthere... (even more like 'hotels' OoO) - & it may be even worse for males being incarcerated...

Hate just brings about more hate, IMO... I stem from a Christian background so the general 'Christian' love to everyone... (or, the good in everyone) as an ideal.. seems very appealing to me...

Would I want to marry or hang out with such a person? Probably not.
(Though there seems some weird attraction of many (unstable?) women to murderers... ?)

SB,

i have only this to say....Slobodan Milosovich.

reb

SB: nothing HITLER did should garner respect. Why do you assume that I 'focus' on hate?. It was merely a statement about who I am. Please know that I need not 'focus' to see Evil in its purest form. Anyone who has love for Hitler is not thinking straight and, sometimes blindly following a religion or religious leader will do that to a person.

citrine wrote:SB: nothing HITLER did should garner respect. Why do you assume that I 'focus' on hate?. It was merely a statement about who I am. Please know that I need not 'focus' to see Evil in its purest form. Anyone who has love for Hitler is not thinking straight and, sometimes blindly following a religion or religious leader will do that to a person.

I don't think she meant that she had love for hitler. I think she was just saying that she doesn't think anybody is all evil and used Hitler as an example.

But I agree with you about hitler. He might have been nice to some people at one point or whatever, but he was still just essentially a bad person. Some people are just bad unfortunately. I think very few people are just bad like this but I have to admit that some people are.

Yeah, Fossy's right... I was just using him as an example...

I believe all people have capability for both good & evil... & that there may be a tiny shred of 'light'/good even in 'worst cases'... at least theoretically...

Slobodan Miloshevich was responsible for a great deal of pain & suffering... I have no excuses for him... What they did was bad. (It wasn't just he.)
Still, if I 'pull the trigger' on someone like him, am I any better than he was?
/maybe a philosophical question, but still.../

I think Hitler was generally terrible to most people, at least the women around him... But I do not personally feel any 'hate' toward him... I guess this would probably be different if what he did affected me personally... I did lose some relatives in WW2 that were greatly missed... On both sides... a few that were drafted by the Germans & a few who joined the partisans... One who joined partisans said it was equally ugly on both sides... & told his brother not to join... He died before the war ended...

I do admire & respect H's organisation & charisma & ability to persuade people... They were used for terrible ends, but you must admit the man had guts & a way of accomplishing things... Terrible things, I definitely do not agree with anything he was doing!! In fact, the opposite!!
(Maybe if he got accepted into art school all would be better?)

Anyway, I was just speaking theoretically, the way I see it all...

I am not particularly religious, so you can't say I was brainwashed by a religious cult or something lol

I did not mean to imply you focus on anything... Just meant to answer the statement

'I don't know how anyone could not hate a murderer.'

in a general manner... & maybe explain why I personally (or maybe other people too) don't have much hate for mostly anyone...

I guess I maybe misunderstood it... So I apologize if I did. If it was merely a statement about you, maybe it's better to say so in the first place... Statements with 'noone' & 'nothing' & such can quickly get misunderstood...