Why do so many people have blind, unconditional trust in leaders?

I've seen this happen in every level of leadership ranging from group leader of a few people working on a project to heads of state. Any ideas on why this happens?

This is not an easy question to answer. There are so many parts and reasons to this.

Some of it involves a need for people to feel like there is predictability, structure and safety in things and they need to trust those they follow to provide this.

Another part is that people are conditioned from birth to follow and do what they are told without asking questions. It is easy to think of numerous examples of this, in fact we are inundated with it on a daily basis and it is constantly being reinforced.

A better question might be how is it that some people can avoid this and think independently, given this onslaught?

Sheeple, people are conditioned to follow whoever the primary authority figure is. It starts in childhood, continues in school and elsewhere, most everything reinforces this concept. Some of us, for some reason, see through it and don't accept it. I totally love the bumpersticker that says "question authority" and do with great regularity. Anyway, that's my take on it.

melodiccolor wrote:
A better question might be how is it that some people can avoid this and think independently

That is a damn good question Melodi. I'm always the first person to sniff out BS in any situation where there is unconditional trust in anything. I'm VERY good at doing this, but I can't quite explain how I do it. I always wonder what I'm seeing that others don't.

I have SERIOUS pet peeves about anyone putting blind, unconditional trust in ANYONE other than immediate family members.

I have SERIOUS pet peeves about anyone putting blind, unconditional trust in ANYONE other than immediate family members.

and unfortunately, sometimes that's not even such a good idea.

It's a good question. Some thoughts ...............

This entire situation has been unfolding for years and should be a big lesson to all of us about "what" can get on these message boards. An HSP community is tailor made for a "cyberpath"! There are still members on the various boards who have their eyes glued shut! There are still those who support destructive leaders and refuse to face facts. How and why does this happen?

Often, people are socialized to override their instincts. Be nice! Don't be rude! Be nice! Don't hurt someone's feelings. Be nice! Give that person the benefit of the doubt. Above all, be nice, y'all!People are taught to doubt, suppress, ignore, override, and FORGIVE AND FORGET what they sense about another because often that sensing instinct is nothing more than an inkling, a tiny nudge.......and heck, we all have to be nice to everyone, don't we? We are HSPs after all! Wouldn't want someone to think we are not nice! Hugs!

When we do all of the above over and over, as Gavin De Becker says, we dismantle our own internal safety system and ignore it. The more we ignore it and submit to peer pressure to ignore it, we retrain and rewire our brains. Once that happens, we open ourselves to all sorts of risks from serious violence to anonymous message board cyberpaths who pass out hugs, support, flowers, and verses of poetry to gain the confidence of vulnerable people. The alarm signal system has been shut down. The safety system does not work!

De Becker points out that humans are the only species that sense danger and ignore the information that instinctive gift provides, which he calls the Gift Of Fear. Animals react based on the info supplied by instincts. They don't sit around or call their friends and discuss for days whether or not they are being judgmental, or unfair. Intuition is NEVER wrong. When it is ignored long enough, that gift resurfaces and we experience it as anxiety and worry. Granted, De Becker deals with violent risk assessment, but there is an overlap for all of us in everyday life situations since assessing character and motive through behavior is something we all do on a daily basis whether we know it or not.

Nucky, age might make a person's joint's creak and hurt, but one of the benefits it can provide is a body of life experience full of important lessons! To reply to your question, I look for a PATTERN. I repeat, a PATTERN! Is my relationship with a particular individual the equivalent of a roller coaster ride, or is it calm, stable , and reliable most of the time. Is their behavior up and down and all over and do they jerk everyone around in the process? Are they vindictive? Are their relationships with others fairly stable and do their relationships demonstrate consistency and longevity? Can they work out disputes and misunderstandings or is everything a painful drama complete with tantrums that repeat over and over again? Have I caught them lying, even about little things, and have I caught them LYING over and over. I repeat, HAVE I CAUGHT THEM LYING? Are there lots of inconsistencies, things that don' t quite add up, and do I notice this over and over?

Mel, several people saw through what was happening on HSPOTS and left moving to another board (VL) even though they did not have all the puzzle pieces yet. The signs and red flags were there! The defenders followed, loyal to the bitter end. Those who left posted stronger and stronger statements trying to be heard about what they saw so clearly, only to be criticized for trying to sound the alarm and get people to see. Whether it is a message board cyberpath or a heavy-handed psychopath who heads a nation, the process is the same, the alarm system in the group has been turned off! Those who attempt to sound the alarm are shunned or eliminated. Cults and "spiritual" groups are another example. They are an easy con, targeting vulnerable people. How many drank the kool-aid? (Jonestown) Why didn't they see? Why did they follow? The alarm system had been turned off.

RE: the supporters.......You also have to look at what the payoff is to those who support! Power, privilege, being part of the inner circle. Some simply do not see and nothing you say or show them will get them to see until there is an major incident.

RE: online identities. I think it should be clear now why publicly revealing former online identities can be such a big deal. You can be sure that our favorite cyberpath has been on the internet digging around for info. Moderators have an ethical/moral obligation to protect the privacy of forum members and that includes trading private member information with other board members or other boards. Scurrying around behind-the scenes with tidbits of a member's personal info is immature and can do tremendous harm to someone particularly if the recipient of the info is one of these message board psychos who has gained your confidence and trust.

I agree with Nucky about questioning putting blind unconditional trust in anyone, particularly someone on an anonymous message board. Family members?

Ishkabibble

In real life the most successful serial killers are the ones you would least suspect. How else would they get to victims that are already on their guard? The are usually attractive, charming, and appearing to be vulnerable themselves.

Sometimes it is better to be ultra careful and jumping at shadows than to be dead (as in the case with serial killers). The online equivalent may not carve you up (or they may depending on how wacked they are) but they can and do cause havoc in your life. Especially if you are highly sensitive and vulnerable.

Nucky,

read 'the black swan'. he goes into great detail about human behaviour. there are very few of us who actually don't fit 'the bell curve' of humanity, mainly because it takes so much thought and effort to go against the crowd. but more detail in 'the black swan'.

Ish hits on some of the areas....

reb

ish, i honestly shove The Gift of Fear down everybody's throats. I think it's one of the most important books a person can read, ever. in fact, i need to read it again--it's been a long time.

great post, great screenname

Thank you Beade!

I agree with you about reading "The Gift of Fear" It is directed primarily to women because women are more vulnerable, but everyone can apply the points De Becker makes and the principles he teaches to life situations involving con artistry. There is a lot of overlap.

One of my favorite Gavin De Becker quotes is...............
The word NO from a man, ends a conversation.
The word NO from a woman, begins a negotiation.

In fairness to those who did not/could not see, the true-crime writer Ann Rule (visit her web site) talks about how hard it can be to see through a skilled psychopath intent on harming you. She talks about working for two weeks in a locked room at night staffing a counseling hot line. She had a co-worker locked in there with her. Another volunteer. A man. Who was he? Ted Bundy!!! Did you just have chills? The point is, they are so slick and deceitful. She says psychopathy is her business and she did not see, but no one had tried to tell her either. Fortunately for her, he did not harm her.

Ish

Ish,

I was one of those people who felt something was very wrong over at hspots when I came to vl.

I agree completely with your post.

The 2nd post about Ann Rule working in a locked room with Ted Bundy on a counseling hot line sure did give me the chills. Having owned a book store, I know well who Ann Rule is.

Nucky, never to trust anyone is a very lonely life. The trick is to figure out who you can trust; who has earned it. There are those I do trust completely, but I am very careful about it. I have only been betrayed twice, and by then I had warning of them and had already begun to withdraw my trust. It still was devestating. Both were a very long time ago when I was much younger. Most people I put my trust in have never hurt me intentionally. And I continue to trust they never will.

I guess blind trust is something different though. I don't think I have ever done that; trust in someone without knowing the feel of their soul.

I never blindly give loyalty to leaders either, they must earn it. I guess that's why I am usually self employed; I drive bosses nuts. But that is how I am.

Melodi,
I do trust some people. Just not blindly. I keep an eye out for all of the things that Ish mentioned in her excellent post. People to me are innocent until I know that they are guilty of those things. I think of myself as a nice guy, but not so nice that I turn my defense system off. I often come across as paranoid to many people. That is the price I pay for having "the gift of fear", but I still think that it is a wonderful gift. Within any group I'm always the first person to notice a pattern like the one Ish described. Always. I was on to Logan long before anybody else was, and I was seen as paranoid by several people because of it.

.
From Anne Rule's book about Ted Bundy........ "The stranger Beside Me."

"He certainly seemed to have made the most of his considerable assets.
He was brilliant ... He was handsome ... And Ted was physically strong ...
He was slender, but he was whipcord tough.

"I never saw any anger at all. I cannot remember everything that Ted
and I talked about, try as I might, but I do know we never argued.
Ted's treatment of me was the kind of old-world gallantry that he
invariably showed toward any woman I ever saw him with, and
I found it appealing."

Ann Rule
"The Stranger Beside Me"
1980, 1986, and 1989 editions, p. 28-31

Nucky,

Those who thought you were 'paranoid' should be feeling a little red in the face, don't you think! oops!
You certainly have been vindicated.

One of the saddest parts of this whole thing is that several former members of other boards, very valuable members with a lot to contribute, who were unfairly maligned for taking a stand, will not rejoin any boards because the experience of being singled out by the cyberpath supporters was so hurtful. How masterful she was at pitting people against one another.

I wonder just how many fell victim to the entire charade, being banned, shunned, or ousted from the group because they tried to sound an alarm in the only way they knew how with the information they had at the time.

Ish~

Edited

Oh darn it, Nucky, I've been trying to restrain myself, but I just can't....

Noogies for Nucky! Noogies for Nucky! Noogies for the Nuckster!

Cheers for Nucky with the exquisitively sensitive nose!

Ishkabibble wrote:It's a good question. Some thoughts ...............

This entire situation has been unfolding for years and should be a big lesson to all of us about "what" can get on these message boards. An HSP community is tailor made for a "cyberpath"! There are still members on the various boards who have their eyes glued shut! There are still those who support destructive leaders and refuse to face facts. How and why does this happen?

Often, people are socialized to override their instincts. Be nice! Don't be rude! Be nice! Don't hurt someone's feelings. Be nice! Give that person the benefit of the doubt. Above all, be nice, y'all!People are taught to doubt, suppress, ignore, override, and FORGIVE AND FORGET what they sense about another because often that sensing instinct is nothing more than an inkling, a tiny nudge.......and heck, we all have to be nice to everyone, don't we? We are HSPs after all! Wouldn't want someone to think we are not nice! Hugs!

When we do all of the above over and over, as Gavin De Becker says, we dismantle our own internal safety system and ignore it. The more we ignore it and submit to peer pressure to ignore it, we retrain and rewire our brains. Once that happens, we open ourselves to all sorts of risks from serious violence to anonymous message board cyberpaths who pass out hugs, support, flowers, and verses of poetry to gain the confidence of vulnerable people. The alarm signal system has been shut down. The safety system does not work!

De Becker points out that humans are the only species that sense danger and ignore the information that instinctive gift provides, which he calls the Gift Of Fear. Animals react based on the info supplied by instincts. They don't sit around or call their friends and discuss for days whether or not they are being judgmental, or unfair. Intuition is NEVER wrong. When it is ignored long enough, that gift resurfaces and we experience it as anxiety and worry. Granted, De Becker deals with violent risk assessment, but there is an overlap for all of us in everyday life situations since assessing character and motive through behavior is something we all do on a daily basis whether we know it or not.

Nucky, age might make a person's joint's creak and hurt, but one of the benefits it can provide is a body of life experience full of important lessons! To reply to your question, I look for a PATTERN. I repeat, a PATTERN! Is my relationship with a particular individual the equivalent of a roller coaster ride, or is it calm, stable , and reliable most of the time. Is their behavior up and down and all over and do they jerk everyone around in the process? Are they vindictive? Are their relationships with others fairly stable and do their relationships demonstrate consistency and longevity? Can they work out disputes and misunderstandings or is everything a painful drama complete with tantrums that repeat over and over again? Have I caught them lying, even about little things, and have I caught them LYING over and over. I repeat, HAVE I CAUGHT THEM LYING? Are there lots of inconsistencies, things that don' t quite add up, and do I notice this over and over?

Mel, several people saw through what was happening on HSPOTS and left moving to another board (VL) even though they did not have all the puzzle pieces yet. The signs and red flags were there! The defenders followed, loyal to the bitter end. Those who left posted stronger and stronger statements trying to be heard about what they saw so clearly, only to be criticized for trying to sound the alarm and get people to see. Whether it is a message board cyberpath or a heavy-handed psychopath who heads a nation, the process is the same, the alarm system in the group has been turned off! Those who attempt to sound the alarm are shunned or eliminated. Cults and "spiritual" groups are another example. They are an easy con, targeting vulnerable people. How many drank the kool-aid? (Jonestown) Why didn't they see? Why did they follow? The alarm system had been turned off.

RE: the supporters.......You also have to look at what the payoff is to those who support! Power, privilege, being part of the inner circle. Some simply do not see and nothing you say or show them will get them to see until there is an major incident.

RE: online identities. I think it should be clear now why publicly revealing former online identities can be such a big deal. You can be sure that our favorite cyberpath has been on the internet digging around for info. Moderators have an ethical/moral obligation to protect the privacy of forum members and that includes trading private member information with other board members or other boards. Scurrying around behind-the scenes with tidbits of a member's personal info is immature and can do tremendous harm to someone particularly if the recipient of the info is one of these message board psychos who has gained your confidence and trust.

I agree with Nucky about questioning putting blind unconditional trust in anyone, particularly someone on an anonymous message board. Family members?

Ishkabibble

For some reason, I remembered this post today. It describes what commonly happens in so many groups to the letter. I think this is a very common occurrence with groups in general, HSP or not.

This thread poses more questions than one can answers. It also make alot of assumptions. For example it assumed that these people followed blindly. What if they are not, we just think they did. For example, while watching a documentary on Hitler, it suddenly occured to me he could not have single handedly started the war. But of course there are cases where blinded following occured eg Jonestown Guyana Massarce. And then they are those who simply followed out of fear.
So if this is the case, it will certainly answer the question how did this people think independently and yet acted like lemmings. For they are indeed capable of thinking independently, they just choose to follow the flow of the tide. Some people have learnt to be just pragmatic. These people have no respect for themselves nor others. No wonder why HSP are wrongly perceived as proud. It is not us who are proud it is just them who have no pride in themselves.
*offtopic:Then there is the issue of problem of trust. I think while HSP are very good at sniffing out the fakes, internet has blocked out many of our HSP senses (eg body languages). We can only judged from what the person mean and his/her emotional level whether he/she is a troll or a hsp. I actually came across a celebrity website where this celebrity is a fake and he/she has 2000 members and all are stars-worshipping him/her. I ever chatted with a girl on the net quite intimately until later I confront her when she admitted she is a guy and begged me not to report him.

I always have my alarm system turned on. I believe that people also tend to pick up on that subconsciously, whether they realize it or not. It's part of what has made my life free of "nutjobs" for the most part, and also somewhat lonely (although other factors also contributed to both.) But I'd rather be lonely than in constant emotional pain any day.

petersi wrote:This thread poses more questions than one can answers. It also make alot of assumptions. For example it assumed that these people followed blindly. What if they are not, we just think they did. For example, while watching a documentary on Hitler, it suddenly occured to me he could not have single handedly started the war. But of course there are cases where blinded following occured eg Jonestown Guyana Massarce. And then they are those who simply followed out of fear.
So if this is the case, it will certainly answer the question how did this people think independently and yet acted like lemmings. For they are indeed capable of thinking independently, they just choose to follow the flow of the tide. Some people have learnt to be just pragmatic. These people have no respect for themselves nor others. No wonder why HSP are wrongly perceived as proud. It is not us who are proud it is just them who have no pride in themselves.
*offtopic:Then there is the issue of problem of trust. I think while HSP are very good at sniffing out the fakes, internet has blocked out many of our HSP senses (eg body languages). We can only judged from what the person mean and his/her emotional level whether he/she is a troll or a hsp. I actually came across a celebrity website where this celebrity is a fake and he/she has 2000 members and all are stars-worshipping him/her. I ever chatted with a girl on the net quite intimately until later I confront her when she admitted she is a guy and begged me not to report him.

You do make a good point; some people do follow blindly while others choose to follow for other reasons that are more pragmatic. I see plenty of both going on. Even those who follow blindly are capable of independent thought, but prefer the security of not making mistakes on their own.

As for trust; I am not a distrustful person at heart. I have learned to just be aware and to pay attention to my intuition and empathy. I got blindsided, for example, because while I was wary of the person discussed, I was not aware of how much she was doing or capable of doing, nor was I aware of how much influence and power she actually had. But I never trusted her; my intuition was telling me not to.