Should bullied children be taught to use discretionary violence?

I was bullied a lot as a kid and as an adolescent. My parents and some of my teachers agreed that students like me should be taught that violence is not the solution to all problems, but it is the solution to some, because the only language bullies understand is a sock in the jaw. They tried to get me to physically fight with students who were bullying me (yes, even some teachers tried to get me to do this.)

Do you agree that children who are bullied enough should be encouraged to use discretionary violence?

Not necessarily. I think they should be taught self confidence, perhaps in the form of self defense classes; the kind that teach that violence is a last resort. Perhaps something like akito.

They should also be taught coping skills to they are not a magnet for bullying in the first place.

Unfortunately, there is something about being hsp that seems to attract bullies and not just for children. There is no easy answer or even one right solution for this either.

I don't know if it's solution, Nucky. Especially with girls, but damn it feels good to whoop some ass, even better when they become as terrified of you as you once were of them.
I'm with Mel on the self defense thing, but I also think parents and society in general should take more responsibility about the messages they send. Whether you like it or not, bulling is an acceptable form of aggression.
Being victimized isn't just a HSP thing, it boils down to what society accepts and expects as normal. Any one who falls out side of these perimeters is subjected to societal pressure and yes, bullying. The fact that kids bully kids in school is a reflection that societal expectations permeates so even kids notice it. Kids accept these expectations as black and white. Every thing in life is about conforming to the party line, so until this pressure to stay within herd is confronted, the pecking order will remain. Humans are essentially animals. Many have yet to arise from instinctual habit, if parents don't have self awareness you sure as shit can't expect the kids to. So until that happens, yeah, being able to beat the crap of some one, is a handy tool in the tool box.

adain wrote:
Being victimized isn't just a HSP thing, it boils down to what society accepts and expects as normal. Any one who falls out side of these perimeters is subjected to societal pressure and yes, bullying. The fact that kids bully kids in school is a reflection that societal expectations permeates so even kids notice it. Kids accept these expectations as black and white. Every thing in life is about conforming to the party line, so until this pressure to stay within herd is confronted, the pecking order will remain. Humans are essentially animals. Many have yet to arise from instinctual habit, if parents don't have self awareness you sure as shit can't expect the kids to. So until that happens, yeah, being able to beat the crap of some one, is a handy tool in the tool box.

I agree in that stigma and predjudice is 'inherited' by learned behaviour. As the world gets smaller and population grows, the perceived need for popularity or success would most likely grow larger. Anything not conforming to this pattern or 'different' would probably seem like fair game to exploit.
Herds...hives...yes that is a good analogy.
Sigh...it's difficult to watch or experience bullying. I don't even know an answer either except as Mel says; learn some sort of passive form of resistance and try to keep your distance. We all are kind of good at that anyway and have a natural 'scent' for that.
As a teen I always admired Kane in Kung Fu. He could 'kick ass' if he wished but always chose to teach non violent lessons in the 'stories'. That would be idealized to me...but is it real in this strange world today? Hmm...I.D.K.
my thoughts...b.d.

the only language bullies understand is a sock in the jaw

That's funny Nucky. I agree with you on that. I think the reason people tried to get you to fight is as a means of sticking up for yourself. Sometimes it's viewed in a negative way when children don't defend themselves. Bullying is an awful thing to go through. Someone has to teach the bully a lesson. I'm just not an advocate for ignoring the situation and then it will go away. A bully can be ruthless and needs to be shown a steel bar to the head if necessary......Ok, maybe not, but you get my point.

I had experiences with bullies when younger. I have, to this day, a broken nose from standing up to a bully who then suckered punched me.

MC wrote:Not necessarily. I think they should be taught self confidence, perhaps in the form of self defense classes;

I have an interest in aikido:
Aikido is often translated as "the Way of unifying (with) life energy"[1] or as "the Way of harmonious spirit."[2] Ueshiba's goal was to create an art that practitioners could use to defend themselves while also protecting their attacker from injury.

Thus, the violence doesn't escalate as a result of the response of the bullied.

adain wrote:Whether you like it or not, bulling is an acceptable form of aggression.

Acceptable by who Adain? Here in the States, it certainly isn't considered to be acceptable by most adults, unless they're complete assholes. Maybe Oceania and Europe are different.

yeap nucky is right..a sock in the jaw..follow by an upper cut..that should do it!

I wasn't really ganged up on until i was in COLLEGE lol crazy isn't? So sometimes I wonder if it's something everybody has to go through

Anyway I would say it's really a community/group effort --it's not enough that the person defends himself. Like in my case the person would feel fine doing what they did and not changing because nobody else would say that what he was doing was inappropriate. Whenever they socialized with this person in any way, little things even like saying hello, it was taken as support... He felt they were on his side. So the harassment never stops

I think sometimes murder is the best way
Some people don't learn through pain
Hopefully if they are in religious in this life, they will have the belief that there is a Hell for them in the afterlife And maybe they will learn better passing through this dimension

Very well said stfeuilles! I totally agree with every single word you said. But I am afraid to said I dont believe in karma though I do wish it was true. Just run away from poison people.
I think it was Eleanor Roosevelt who said if your friends hurt you its their faults and if they hurt you a second time, it is your fault.

I think Martin Luther King said something to that effect too, ie more harms are done by the passivity of the "good" people than the actual acts of evil by bad people. Many other philosophers have said similar thing through the ages.

I believe the saying is "For evil to thrive, good must do nothing." This means more than just fleeing, but taking action to prevent evil from continuing on its path of destruction.

We can't stop all bullying or evil, but there are times we can take action in defense of ourselves or others that can stop it in its tracks, at least for awhile.

I have done so, taken action that stopped harm from being done to myself or another. I have also faded away rather than face bullying. It depends on the circumstances. Usually though, I do try to stop the bad behavior before I leave in order to help others. I have always taken some heat for this and that's ok.

What is not ok is to use violence as a first resort or to hide and never face those doing harm. It is never ok to do harm yourself to those who do no harm.

Thank you melodi for the thoughts and for filling in the quote.

I certainly dont mean to implies that HSP should be martyrs. In fact I think most martyrs in history are probably HSP. I dont believe in being martyrs. I agree with you that it should depends on circumstances. And I also believe HSP should be assertive where situations demand it. Unfortunately HSP are built to be a shaman we are not warriors.

stfeuilles wrote:I think sometimes murder is the best way
Some people don't learn through pain
Hopefully if they are in religious in this life, they will have the belief that there is a Hell for them in the afterlife And maybe they will learn better passing through this dimension

I usually don't post outside the usual forums I frequent and didn't realise this was in another forum and I forgot where I posted my post..and didn't see the new replies

Anyway, I just wanted to bring this part up in my earlier post. Would be nice to explain ^^ It's from something I read some weeks ago... I think it was by Robert Monroe. It was about phasing and the After-life. He "travels" through these areas using his mind/or spirit... He wrote a small bit about finding someone trapped in his own Hell. It was a man who would do awful things to people for fun, if I remember correctly-- and his Hell was full of people who did exactly the same thing. I don't know how long he was there, but it seemed it was time for him to leave... He seemed to have learnt his lesson and Monroe was the one who helped him out. I think this is a much better way for a person to learn and evolve into a better person-- that's what I meant in my post. I think there are too many variables in our world that people like these will never learn. So many loopholes. They need an environment that's harsher and more obvious. Something equal to the person's personality.

And there was also something I read somewhere else that these people who cause mayhem are there to teach people lessons too. But I feel like a lot of people just become more destructive rather than learn. From what I've seen around me, a lot of people don't seem to be self-reflective at all. So when something happens to them, they always deny it or take it out on someone else. So it kind of turns into a vicious cycle.

A leopard never changes its spots. Never make the same mistake as countless HSP through the ages. Have you ever wonder why the shamans in the olden days who were highly revered then but now we are all in this dump where no one cares nor appreciates?

When like minded live in the same room, they either fight each other or they thrive. When they fight each other, you see the Fall of the Roman Empire. When they thrive, you see the Hitler's Aryan party. Has anyone figure out that Hitler could not have single handedly bring up his empire? They were many others who were as evil as him. They didnt fight each other. In fact they were probably the most efficient human machine working collectively at one time. And certainly they do not "exhort" each other to become good guy when they are together. They just build more powerful weopens. (Remember too that goodness is a relative term. As long as we accept that, there can be no good or evil. This is of course another matter altogether which I wont discuss here for obvious reason.)
I am sorry but I think Robert Monroe is kidding himself.

A thread discussing the concepts of good and evil as relative terms rather than as absolutes would be an interesting one to start petersi. It's been awhile since we visited that topic and many people have since arrived who never did.

True, we are not warriors. That doesn't mean we can't make a huge difference against warriors. Trust me on this one.

Being able to outthink and outintuit one's adversary is no small advantage.

Greetings to all

I would like to share this experience with you if I may.......

I was bullied at school. It started in primary but then it was just name calling and I put up with all that. On the first day of high school, a beast of a girl walked up to me in the cloakroom and slapped me across the face....on asking why she had done it she just answered " you were looking at me and I dont like your face" with that she walked off with her cronies laughing. I had not even looked at her let alone stared! A few well meaning girls told me to tell a teacher so I did. The result of this was that the girl who's name was Julie but I still refer to her as "cow"....was made to apologise to me in the playground in front of ALL of the girls. That was to be the start of 4 years of bullying from her and her mates. A dispute over a lad in my last year of school led to bullying from within my own year, my own friends. For the best part of this year I coped with name calling, things being thrown at me, the backs of my legs being kicked in assembly etc gangs of them waiting for me at home time. Lessons were hell. One day the ringleader in all this pushed into me walking into school after breaktime and I just snapped. I turned around and grabbed her by the hair and went for the head butt which she avoided, then for what seemed an eternity, we did the girlie hair pulling and face scratching thing. I had the upper hand on this as I had talons and she bit her nails. I'm pleased to say that I made a mess of her face and lost 8 of my 10 nails in the process but it was worth it! I had a few bald patches where she had ripped my hair out but she looked like she had been mauled by a vicious cat! I had the indignity of being pulled apart by the deputy headmistress who then dragged us both away for some stern words! She was used to having J stand in front of her but was most shocked to have me there...little miss quiet! She went easy on me and I got the impression that she was secretly pleased that I had stuck up for myself as she had witnessed some of what went on in the classroom in her history lessons.

I am not a violent person and I hate violence in itself BUT I am proud that I stuck up for myself that day. Funnily enough...the bullying stopped. They wanted to be friends again. I made the peace but really never forgave them for treating me like that. Some friends you can do without.

Oh and as for Julie the cow......when I had left school and was on the bus going to college, she got on minus her cronies, she saw me but quickly looked away, suddenly she wasn't so tough without her little gang. I like to think that karma may have visited her at some point in that wonderful way that it does.

Pix

melodi thanks for your thoughts. I agree with u. but it is very tiring to do that sometime.

petersi wrote:melodi thanks for your thoughts. I agree with u. but it is very tiring to do that sometime.

Am I going mental or have you edited this post lol.....one minute you mentioned something about me and the next POOF............gone!

Errrrr am verrry sensitive yer know and now I will imagine all sorts of things and will go and sit in a corner and dwell on it!

Pix

P.s or maybe I have imagined the whole thing and am more mental than I previously thought!

I do not know exactly what to say.
You will always be bullied when you are deviating from mainstream. When you are other than the others, they become afraid of you because there is something they do not know. Something that is strange causes unconcient fears.
I was bullied already at a young age, started in Kindergarten, went through schools, apprenticeships, employments and so-called collegues. When I was a child I was rather "i" instead of "e". I was very shy and full of fears and did not dare to speak up. Others took this as a sign of stupidity/silliness and started bullying. When you put all your efforts into learning you will be bullied for being a "swot". I was regularly beaten up as well. When mum went to the teachers, they told her to put me in a glass-house. When I started to defend me, they called me rebellious, because I defended myself so violently towards the one who was beating me that I broke his leg. Later at working places, there was mobbing (still is). As long as I will be other than others I will be treated as what people see in me. I really acted violent at my first and second work place.
At the first I was dismissed without notice for "I do not know", they called it espionage and trouble making. The real reasons was I try to safe a collegue from being dismissed. He was disabled and very often ill. But he was in a higher position and so they tried to find a way to get rid off him. I listened to what they planned and told him and decided with him how to counteract etc. He was gone half a year later. I was so furious about that...perhaps you will think it stupid or nonsense but I put all my concentration and mind into the destruction of this company that went bancruptcy 5 months later. So, I had my perfect revenge. With the next place another problem. My direct chef was mobbing me and demeaned me, making me as little as the little dirt.....sorry, I should not talk so about the dead. I even have not the right words to express it correctly. But again after 5 years I was dismissed without notice for trouble making. I took again my "perfect" revenge. Putting my focus on destroyind the company and my direct chef. The company was sold and merged into another one. My chef was dying in a mysterious accident. He was driving full speed under a lorry without using the brakes.

I know, things that happened were not good and should never be applied if it can be avoided. Never in my life I did it again. I have found another way of coping with such things. When someone is mean to me, I feel pity for this person. I feel sorry for him/her losing self-control. I put all my meditation and concentration efforts to direct to positive things and thinking. When they intend to make me cry, I am smiling at their faces. When they bellow, I start humming a song. When they sent me doing work that is dirty, I just drop myself into a meditative state and they wonder why I do not complain and look satisfied. It is quite a better way not to use violence in any case.
Just beat your adversaries with positivity.

Sorry pixie you were right, I started a new thread and fell asleep...Firstly let me give you a big HUG
Secondly I am with you all the ways.
Let me go brush my teeth and I will return to write rest of what I want to said ok?
*Intermission*

Bullying is an experience we all have faced at times in our lives. I am no exception to that; besides being hsp and highly empathic, I am also gifted and deal with a congenital progressive disability. The disability wasn't diagnosed until I was 32 (and unable to walk) but the problems caused by it were there all my life.

So I was uncoordinated with poor motor control on top of everything else as a child. Of course I was mercilessly bullied, ganged up on, beaten, etc. When I was in 2nd grade and about 7, a girl that was tormenting me grabbed my shoes of my feet and threw them into running sprinklers, ruining them. I lost it and pulled her hair. She pulled mine back and I fought; the most pathetic fighting ever. It ended abruptly when my glasses flew off and I stopped to protect them. I never used violence as a solution again, nor lost it to anger out of control. I began to learn how to successfully cope.

I discovered early on, that I was much happier self employed and so for most of my life, I have been and it has worked out well. I do not suffer bullies as they find out to their dismay.

(btw, for new members that don't know me, I recovered most of my lost motor function caused by autoimmune attacks, but I still deal with the attacks and fallout.)

Pixie, I am glad you no longer accept friends such as that girl back in school. Friends are those that accept you for who you are and genuinely like and care about you. They are those you can trust to be honest with you and you with them and still not be hurt. They are those who revel in your dreams and are there when you face tragedy.

Wabun Wind, it is good you no longer use your abilities to do harm. We all have that ability and it is well we refrain from using it in that way. It harms us as much as those we aim it at.

I have fought off bullies quite a few time in school too. My trophy one was where 3 bullies throw stone at me, one of them a head above me. I went after them but they ran away. 3 against 1 and yet they cowered away. This increases my courage and they ran so fast that one of them lost his shoe. I went and pick up his shoe and thrown it into the forrest nearby. Of course they never pick on me again. I would have clobber them nicely if not for the fact I was totally outnumbered!
Sorry I have to go...I will write more later...I be back! Love ya!
*Intermission* (yeah go buy your popcorns and coke now!)

Reading through this today connected me to a young introverted girl who I met recently, she shared her journey of being bullied and told me that she is now good friends with the person who continually bullied her in school. I found this quite profound and asked her how she found that space after the the things he did to her. She explained that when he was bullying her she knew it wasnt him, the real him, she could see beyond his pain. So she continued to maintain this space with him until he finally turned around some years later. Now they are the best of friends. For some reason today I felt like I needed to share this story....

petersi wrote:Sorry pixie you were right, I started a new thread and fell asleep...Firstly let me give you a big HUG
Secondly I am with you all the ways.
Let me go brush my teeth and I will return to write rest of what I want to said ok?
*Intermission*

LOLOL petersi

Thanks for the hug!

I know I am not imagining things now! So no need for the medication just yet hehe

Look Pixie if i was there with you I would help you to beat up the cow. But we HSP never feel good even if we win after a fight. I never felt good after a fight too. Like Melodi I felt so repulsive inside me that I wanted to vomit. So as a HSP somehow I have to said we must learn how to respond to a situation rather than being reactive to it. Easier said than done I know. But in your case, the cow did stop hassling you, so in this specific incident,i support your action even if it was a morally wrong thing to do.Love ya!

petersi wrote:Look Pixie if i was there with you I would help you to beat up the cow. But we HSP never feel good even if we win after a fight. I never felt good after a fight too. Like Melodi I felt so repulsive inside me that I wanted to vomit. So as a HSP somehow I have to said we must learn how to respond to a situation rather than being reactive to it. Easier said than done I know. But in your case, the cow did stop hassling you, so in this specific incident,i support your action even if it was a morally wrong thing to do.Love ya!

petersi....

Like I said...I am not a violent person, I hate violence although I have been the target for other peoples frustrations and spitefullness for years. I wish that I could say that I felt bad afterwards but I can't. Everybody has a limit to what they can withstand and I had taken 7 years of bullying by that point. It may be worth mentioning that the week of the fight, I had lost my Nana and was taking my final exams...all this added to my stress and I was struggling to keep it together as it was. The bullying played a big part in me developing an eating disorder in some weird attempt to get some sort of control. That is a hell of a lot of power to be giving to people, to affect you to the point of that. The girl pushing into me just made something snap. I couldn't walk away...I was in a crowd of people all going back into school in a small corridor. I was trapped so in the fight or flight option, the flight was not available so pent up emotion took over. There is a bigger picture to it though. My parents were never aware of what was going on at school..I never told them. After the fight, a letter was sent to my parents and they were shocked but it all came out and my Mum then told me that she had been worried about my weight loss, my parents were very supportive. They were upset that I had not talked to them about it but for me....I felt weak and ashamed I suppose.

Morally wrong? Maybe but my action was in defence and to me there is something far more morally wrong in a human being thinking that they have the right to belittle another one for their own kicks. Would I smile at some attacker who was attempting to drag me into some bushes? Would I be sending him loving thoughts at this point? No I bloody well would not....I would be attempting to take his nads out with my size 4! If someone was trying to hurt my baby....I would do WHATEVER I had to! I am a human being with the flaws that come with it....if the world was full of sensitive people then it would be a damn better place but it isn't and with the best will in the world, even the most well meaning of souls occaisionally come undone.