Cell Phone Contract

by Reamsie Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:50 pm

Found this little gem and since I have teenagers with cell phones, thought I would share. It is very similar to the agreement I have with my kids already. Actually when you think about it, a good set of rules for even adults to follow.

1. It is my phone. I bought it. I pay for it. I am loaning it to you. Aren't I the greatest?

2. I will always know the password.

3. If it rings, answer it. It is a phone. Say hello, use your manners. Do not ever ignore a phone call if the screen reads "Mom" or "Dad." Not ever.

4. Hand the phone to one of your parents promptly at 7:30 p.m. every school night and every weekend night at 9:00 p.m. It will be shut off for the night and turned on again at 7:30 a.m. If you would not make a call to someone's land line, wherein their parents may answer first, then do not call or text. Listen to those instincts and respect other families like we would like to be respected.

5. It does not go to school with you. Have a conversation with the people you text in person. It's a life skill. *Half days, field trips and after school activities will require special consideration.

6. If it falls into the toilet, smashes on the ground, or vanishes into thin air, you are responsible for the replacement costs or repairs. Mow a lawn, babysit, stash some birthday money. It will happen, you should be prepared.

7. Do not use this technology to lie, fool, or deceive another human being. Do not involve yourself in conversations that are hurtful to others. Be a good friend first or stay the hell out of the crossfire.

8. Do not text, email, or say anything through this device you would not say in person.

9. Do not text, email, or say anything to someone that you would not say out loud with their parents in the room. Censor yourself.

10. No porn. Search the web for information you would openly share with me. If you have a question about anything, ask a person -- preferably me or your father.

11. Turn it off, silence it, put it away in public. Especially in a restaurant, at the movies, or while speaking with another human being. You are not a rude person; do not allow the iPhone to change that.

12. Do not send or receive pictures of your private parts or anyone else's private parts. Don't laugh. Someday you will be tempted to do this despite your high intelligence. It is risky and could ruin your teenage/college/adult life. It is always a bad idea. Cyberspace is vast and more powerful than you. And it is hard to make anything of this magnitude disappear -- including a bad reputation.

13. Don't take a zillion pictures and videos. There is no need to document everything. Live your experiences. They will be stored in your memory for eternity.

14. Leave your phone home sometimes and feel safe and secure in that decision. It is not alive or an extension of you. Learn to live without it. Be bigger and more powerful than FOMO (fear of missing out).

15. Download music that is new or classic or different than the millions of your peers that listen to the same exact stuff. Your generation has access to music like never before in history. Take advantage of that gift. Expand your horizons.

16. Play a game with words or puzzles or brain teasers every now and then.

17. Keep your eyes up. See the world happening around you. Stare out a window. Listen to the birds. Take a walk. Talk to a stranger. Wonder without googling.

18. You will mess up. I will take away your phone. We will sit down and talk about it. We will start over again. You and I, we are always learning. I am on your team. We are in this together.

by melodiccolor Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:25 pm

Yes, excellent guidelines that every parent should see.

by Guest Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:58 pm

Very good info....a must for every parent ma'am.....btw.......

Why do we even need cellphones.......seriously?

A compass in the hand is better than...a cellphone in the bag?...........or something like that!

by Reamsie Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:09 pm

Captain Jack Sparrow wrote:Very good info....a must for every parent ma'am.....btw.......

Why do we even need cellphones.......seriously?

A compass in the hand is better than...a cellphone in the bag?...........or something like that!

I know . . . I tell my kids all the time somehow we all managed to get along fine before they were invented Very Happy

by Guest Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:12 pm

Right.........and we "lived" life..........I'll have none of it!!

when my contract is over..........that is!

by Zen Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:14 pm

lmfao @ "no porn"

by Guest Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:15 pm

Porn spreads sexual transmitted techno viruses...........stay clear of it and read a dirty mag...........or comic!

by Zen Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:17 pm

I also loled @ "no nudes" or "sexting"

If only more people had to sign that as a contract

by rombomb Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:22 am

1. It is my phone. I bought it. I pay for it. I am loaning it to you. Aren't I the greatest?

So children shouldn't own anything? Or they should, but phones are not one of those things?

2. I will always know the password.

Privacy invasion.

3. If it rings, answer it. It is a phone. Say hello, use your manners. Do not ever ignore a phone call if the screen reads "Mom" or "Dad." Not ever.

What if I'm in the bathroom? Or having sex?

4. Hand the phone to one of your parents promptly at 7:30 p.m. every school night and every weekend night at 9:00 p.m. It will be shut off for the night and turned on again at 7:30 a.m. If you would not make a call to someone's land line, wherein their parents may answer first, then do not call or text. Listen to those instincts and respect other families like we would like to be respected.

Why not just persuade one's children that some families do not want to be called at night?

5. It does not go to school with you. Have a conversation with the people you text in person. It's a life skill. *Half days, field trips and after school activities will require special consideration.

I think a phone is useful as an emergency tool. Like calling for help when one needs it. Taking this away can be the difference between life and death.

6. If it falls into the toilet, smashes on the ground, or vanishes into thin air, you are responsible for the replacement costs or repairs. Mow a lawn, babysit, stash some birthday money. It will happen, you should be prepared.

I like that idea. Though this should not be a rule (decided by a dictator) and instead it should be a discussion between two people searching for the truth -- where the truth is an agreement between them about what should be done.

7. Do not use this technology to lie, fool, or deceive another human being. Do not involve yourself in conversations that are hurtful to others. Be a good friend first or stay the hell out of the crossfire.

That can be misleading. Do lie, fool, or deceive another human being IF your reason is to protect yourself from that person because he is actively hurting you (physically, in the case of violence -- or non-physically, in the case of non-violent coercion).

8. Do not text, email, or say anything through this device you would not say in person.

I like that idea, but again, it should be one that a parent tries to persuade his child of.

9. Do not text, email, or say anything to someone that you would not say out loud with their parents in the room. Censor yourself.

I disagree. If the parent is a bad person, do hide certain things from him -- things that you don't need to hide from other people.

10. No porn. Search the web for information you would openly share with me. If you have a question about anything, ask a person -- preferably me or your father.

If a person parents like a dictator, and one of his rules is 'no porn', then the child will find it beneficial to avoid asking his parents about porn. But of course, people will have questions about it, so who will they turn to? Friends I guess.

11. Turn it off, silence it, put it away in public. Especially in a restaurant, at the movies, or while speaking with another human being. You are not a rude person; do not allow the iPhone to change that.

Good. But persuasion not rules (aka coercion).

12. Do not send or receive pictures of your private parts or anyone else's private parts. Don't laugh. Someday you will be tempted to do this despite your high intelligence. It is risky and could ruin your teenage/college/adult life. It is always a bad idea. Cyberspace is vast and more powerful than you. And it is hard to make anything of this magnitude disappear -- including a bad reputation.

Good idea, but its limited. A better idea is one that explains why privacy is important in general.

13. Don't take a zillion pictures and videos. There is no need to document everything. Live your experiences. They will be stored in your memory for eternity.

I take almost no pictures. Smile

But again, persuasion not coercion.

14. Leave your phone home sometimes and feel safe and secure in that decision. It is not alive or an extension of you. Learn to live without it. Be bigger and more powerful than FOMO (fear of missing out).

This forgets that phones are good for emergency use.

15. Download music that is new or classic or different than the millions of your peers that listen to the same exact stuff. Your generation has access to music like never before in history. Take advantage of that gift. Expand your horizons.

Right, don't do X just because your peers are doing X. Do X because you like X. And make sure you don't like X just because your peers like X.

16. Play a game with words or puzzles or brain teasers every now and then.

Why? Because they are fun. But this idea doesn't explain this. Why? Because the person that wrote this thinks the reason is to "make yourself smarter", but that is a poor reason. The point is, if a person doesn't find these things fun, that means there is a problem.

17. Keep your eyes up. See the world happening around you. Stare out a window. Listen to the birds. Take a walk. Talk to a stranger. Wonder without googling.

I don't get what this is getting out. Maybe its because I'm kinda old. I grew up without phones.

18. You will mess up. I will take away your phone. We will sit down and talk about it. We will start over again. You and I, we are always learning. I am on your team. We are in this together.

If you are on his team, then why did you take away the phone?

by Reamsie Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:30 pm

1. It is my phone. I bought it. I pay for it. I am loaning it to you. Aren't I the greatest?

rombomb wrote:So children shouldn't own anything? Or they should, but phones are not one of those things?

Erroneous assumption-since this is a specific sentence dealing with a specific item, i.e. a cellphone. Nowhere in this sentence did I indicate that children should not own anything. However, since you like to "read into" things, to answer your question If my children want to buy something with THEIR OWN MONEY than they own it. When I buy it for them, unless it is a present (and sometimes even then) it still ultimately belongs to me. My husband and I like many parents consider a cellphone and its use a [priviledge] not a right or a necessity.

2. I will always know the password.

rombomb wrote:Privacy invasion.

Yes, my children are minors. They are not tennants. They do not pay rent. They live in my home and I am responsible for them financially, legally and morally. I love them enough to checkup on them if I feel it is necessary. They can have total privacy when they are adults.

3. If it rings, answer it. It is a phone. Say hello, use your manners. Do not ever ignore a phone call if the screen reads "Mom" or "Dad." Not ever.

rombomb wrote:What if I'm in the bathroom? Or having sex?

Then they still need to answer their phone. Very Happy

4. Hand the phone to one of your parents promptly at 7:30 p.m. every school night and every weekend night at 9:00 p.m. It will be shut off for the night and turned on again at 7:30 a.m. If you would not make a call to someone's land line, wherein their parents may answer first, then do not call or text. Listen to those instincts and respect other families like we would like to be respected.

rombomb wrote:Why not just persuade one's children that some families do not want to be called at night?

Again, another erroneous assumption--that I do not discuss these the reasons behind these rules BEFORE I make them I have had these discussions with my children. Children have issues with impulse control and they love to test rules and boundaries of parents and other authority figures. I am not foolish enough to believe that my children won't text or answer texts from friends much later than they should and when it is not appropriate. If there is an emergency their friends and their friends' parents have cell phone numbers for both myself and my husband.

5. It does not go to school with you. Have a conversation with the people you text in person. It's a life skill. *Half days, field trips and after school activities will require special consideration.

rombomb wrote:I think a phone is useful as an emergency tool. Like calling for help when one needs it. Taking this away can be the difference between life and death.

Yes. I agree. Your point is what exactly? That schools filled with supervisory adults are "unsafe"? So how did all of us who attended school before the invention of cell phones survive?

6. If it falls into the toilet, smashes on the ground, or vanishes into thin air, you are responsible for the replacement costs or repairs. Mow a lawn, babysit, stash some birthday money. It will happen, you should be prepared.

rombomb wrote:I like that idea. Though this should not be a rule (decided by a dictator) and instead it should be a discussion between two people searching for the truth -- where the truth is an agreement between them about what should be done.

Again with assumptions that there are no discussion prior to rules being made. There are always discussions however, and when agreements can be reached, that's great. However, in a parent/adult v. minor/child situation--I have veto power and love them enough to make decisions they may not like and enforce them in order to raise them to be responsible and productive adults.

7. Do not use this technology to lie, fool, or deceive another human being. Do not involve yourself in conversations that are hurtful to others. Be a good friend first or stay the hell out of the crossfire.

rombomb wrote:That can be misleading. Do lie, fool, or deceive another human being IF your reason is to protect yourself from that person because he is actively hurting you (physically, in the case of violence -- or non-physically, in the case of non-violent coercion).

I think this goes without saying and I am somewhat flabergasted that you didn't "read into" or "assume" with this rule.

8. Do not text, email, or say anything through this device you would not say in person.

rombomb wrote:I like that idea, but again, it should be one that a parent tries to persuade his child of.

See my answer to your response to number 6. . . ditto

]9. do not text, email, or say anything to someone that you would not say out loud with their parents in the room. Censor yourself.

rombomb wrote:I disagree. If the parent is a bad person, do hide certain things from him -- things that you don't need to hide from other people.

If one of my children encounters a parent that is a bad enough person that they feel "afraid" or need to hide something from them, they can come to me. That is not something that a child should shoulder responsibility for.

10. No porn. Search the web for information you would openly share with me. If you have a question about anything, ask a person -- preferably me or your father.

rombomb wrote:If a person parents like a dictator, and one of his rules is 'no porn', then the child will find it beneficial to avoid asking his parents about porn. But of course, people will have questions about it, so who will they turn to? Friends I guess.

See my answer to your reply to item 6. Oh and as to the assumption about "who they will turn to"-My kids do ask me questions regarding sex and even "porn" they are NOT taboo subjects in my home. Howver, even when you are open with your kids they are still going to discuss it with their friends as well.

11. Turn it off, silence it, put it away in public. Especially in a restaurant, at the movies, or while speaking with another human being. You are not a rude person; do not allow the iPhone to change that.

rombomb wrote:Good. But persuasion not rules (aka coercion).

See my answer to your reply on item 6

12. Do not send or receive pictures of your private parts or anyone else's private parts. Don't laugh. Someday you will be tempted to do this despite your high intelligence. It is risky and could ruin your teenage/college/adult life. It is always a bad idea. Cyberspace is vast and more powerful than you. And it is hard to make anything of this magnitude disappear -- including a bad reputation.

rombomb wrote:Good idea, but its limited. A better idea is one that explains why privacy is important in general.

I guess the assumption here once again is that I haven't

don't take a zillion pictures and videos. There is no need to document everything. Live your experiences. They will be stored in your memory for eternity.

rombomb wrote:I take almost no pictures. But again, persuasion not coercion.

Again see my answer to your reply to item 6

14. Leave your phone home sometimes and feel safe and secure in that decision. It is not alive or an extension of you. Learn to live without it. Be bigger and more powerful than FOMO (fear of missing out).

rombomb wrote:This forgets that phones are good for emergency use.

They will be times that they forget to take it with them anyway. Also, you will never be able to predict and prepare for all of life's surprises no matter how hard you try. Having your cellphone doesn't guarantee you will be able to get out of an emergency.

15. Download music that is new or classic or different than the millions of your peers that listen to the same exact stuff. Your generation has access to music like never before in history. Take advantage of that gift. Expand your horizons.

rombomb wrote:Right, don't do X just because your peers are doing X. Do X because you like X. And make sure you don't like X just because your peers like X.

I find it funny that just because you agree with this one I am NOT being a dictator or a tyrant. Very Happy

16. Play a game with words or puzzles or brain teasers every now and then.

rombomb wrote:Why? Because they are fun. But this idea doesn't explain this. Why? Because the person that wrote this thinks the reason is to "make yourself smarter", but that is a poor reason. The point is, if a person doesn't find these things fun, that means there is a problem.

How is this different from the previous item (#15). Maybe a kid only enjoys rap music--oh no! there must be a problem. I think item 16 is in the exact same spirit as 15. As in--Don't spend all your time just talking, texting and looking at youtube videos on your phone.

17. Keep your eyes up. See the world happening around you. Stare out a window. Listen to the birds. Take a walk. Talk to a stranger. Wonder without googling.

rombomb wrote:I don't get what this is getting out. Maybe its because I'm kinda old. I grew up without phones.

To me it says don't just have your nose in your phone, tv, video game, etc. all the time. Like Ferris Bueller said "Life moves pretty fast, ff you don't stop and look around once in a while you might just miss it".

18. You will mess up. I will take away your phone. We will sit down and talk about it. We will start over again. You and I, we are always learning. I am on your team. We are in this together.

rombomb wrote:If you are on his team, then why did you take away the phone?

See my answer to your reply to item 6. Also, actions have consequences which is one of the most fundamental things we teach children everyday.

by rombomb Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:09 pm

Reamsie, your initial post said that you were not the one that created this set of rules. Also, I googled for this and found the original article which explained that the parent did not discuss these rules with her child. They were dictated.

http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/mobiles/i-will-always-know-the-password-mother-gives-son-an-iphone-for-christmas-along-with-18point-contract-20130103-2c68e.html

Merry Christmas! You are now the proud owner of an iPhone. [...] But with the acceptance of this present comes rules and regulations.

Reamsie wrote:
1. It is my phone. I bought it. I pay for it. I am loaning it to you. Aren't I the greatest?
rombomb wrote:So children shouldn't own anything? Or they should, but phones are not one of those things?

Erroneous assumption-since this is a specific sentence dealing with a specific item, i.e. a cellphone. Nowhere in this sentence did I indicate that children should not own anything. However, since you like to "read into" things, to answer your question If my children want to buy something with THEIR OWN MONEY than they own it. When I buy it for them, unless it is a present (and sometimes even then) it still ultimately belongs to me. My husband and I like many parents consider a cellphone and its use a [priviledge] not a right or a necessity.

A cellphone is good. Thats why people (including children) should have them. For the same reason, an ipad (or similar device) is good, thats why people (including children) should have them.

Reamsie wrote:
2. I will always know the password.
rombomb wrote:Privacy invasion.

Yes, my children are minors. They are not tennants. They do not pay rent. They live in my home and I am responsible for them financially, legally and morally. I love them enough to checkup on them if I feel it is necessary. They can have total privacy when they are adults.

Even against their will? Or are they persuaded of this?

Reamsie wrote:
3. If it rings, answer it. It is a phone. Say hello, use your manners. Do not ever ignore a phone call if the screen reads "Mom" or "Dad." Not ever.
rombomb wrote:What if I'm in the bathroom? Or having sex?

Then they still need to answer their phone.

I wouldn't. I'd call when I was done. I don't see why this is problematic. If my parent thinks it problematic, he can explain and we'll discuss whether or not it is actually problematic.

rombomb wrote:Why not just persuade one's children that some families do not want to be called at night?

Again, another erroneous assumption--that I do not discuss these the reasons behind these rules BEFORE I make them I have had these discussions with my children. Children have issues with impulse control and they love to test rules and boundaries of parents and other authority figures. I am not foolish enough to believe that my children won't text or answer texts from friends much later than they should and when it is not appropriate. If there is an emergency their friends and their friends' parents have cell phone numbers for both myself and my husband.

You said you discussed it with them, which isn't clear, but I'll assume it means they are persuaded by your idea (or rule), in which case there's no problem since its not against their will.

Reamsie wrote:
5. It does not go to school with you. Have a conversation with the people you text in person. It's a life skill. *Half days, field trips and after school activities will require special consideration.
rombomb wrote:I think a phone is useful as an emergency tool. Like calling for help when one needs it. Taking this away can be the difference between life and death.

Yes. I agree. Your point is what exactly? That schools filled with supervisory adults are "unsafe"? So how did all of us who attended school before the invention of cell phones survive?

Why does that matter? Today is different than the past. Note the mass murders happening in school.

Reamsie wrote:
6. If it falls into the toilet, smashes on the ground, or vanishes into thin air, you are responsible for the replacement costs or repairs. Mow a lawn, babysit, stash some birthday money. It will happen, you should be prepared.
rombomb wrote:I like that idea. Though this should not be a rule (decided by a dictator) and instead it should be a discussion between two people searching for the truth -- where the truth is an agreement between them about what should be done.

Again with assumptions that there are no discussion prior to rules being made. There are always discussions however, and when agreements can be reached, that's great. However, in a parent/adult v. minor/child situation--I have veto power and love them enough to make decisions they may not like and enforce them in order to raise them to be responsible and productive adults.

You're acting against their will. How do you know you're right? What if you're wrong and they're right? Why not discuss things so that what they want is the same as what you want? Then you wouldn't be acting against their will.

Reamsie wrote:
7. Do not use this technology to lie, fool, or deceive another human being. Do not involve yourself in conversations that are hurtful to others. Be a good friend first or stay the hell out of the crossfire.
rombomb wrote:That can be misleading. Do lie, fool, or deceive another human being IF your reason is to protect yourself from that person because he is actively hurting you (physically, in the case of violence -- or non-physically, in the case of non-violent coercion).

I think this goes without saying and I am somewhat flabergasted that you didn't "read into" or "assume" with this rule.

It does not go without saying. You're saying that stuff is obvious, but parents routinely say stuff to their kids that their kids don't understand. That means that the kid doesn't find something obvious. What is obvious to a person is not necessarily obvious to anyone else.

Reamsie wrote:
10. No porn. Search the web for information you would openly share with me. If you have a question about anything, ask a person -- preferably me or your father.
rombomb wrote:If a person parents like a dictator, and one of his rules is 'no porn', then the child will find it beneficial to avoid asking his parents about porn. But of course, people will have questions about it, so who will they turn to? Friends I guess.

See my answer to your reply to item 6. Oh and as to the assumption about "who they will turn to"-My kids do ask me questions regarding sex and even "porn" they are NOT taboo subjects in my home. Howver, even when you are open with your kids they are still going to discuss it with their friends as well.

There's no problem at all with discussing things with friends.

No subject should be taboo.

Reamsie wrote:
16. Play a game with words or puzzles or brain teasers every now and then.
rombomb wrote:Why? Because they are fun. But this idea doesn't explain this. Why? Because the person that wrote this thinks the reason is to "make yourself smarter", but that is a poor reason. The point is, if a person doesn't find these things fun, that means there is a problem.

How is this different from the previous item (#15). Maybe a kid only enjoys rap music--oh no! there must be a problem.

Whats wrong with rap music? Nothing.

I shouldn't have said: "if a person doesn't find these things fun, that means there is a problem." Instead, I should have said: "If one doesn't like to think, that is bad and indicates a problem."

Reamsie wrote:
18. You will mess up. I will take away your phone. We will sit down and talk about it. We will start over again. You and I, we are always learning. I am on your team. We are in this together.
rombomb wrote:If you are on his team, then why did you take away the phone?

See my answer to your reply to item 6. Also, actions have consequences which is one of the most fundamental things we teach children everyday.

And who decides what those consequences will be? The parent? Or is this a truth-seeking discussion between a parent and child?

by anarkandi Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:01 pm

I love how Rombomb will dissert and pick apart anything, even in the bubble bath. Very Happy

I actually agree on privacy invasion, haha, children should be able to tell their parents anything, but on some point it is good to keep spaces were kids can be themselves without their parents finding out. I think it's good for developing your distance and having safe spaces sometimes. Otherwise the kids will find other ways of creating these safe spaces, and they will resist you alot on it.

Otherwise, nice contract. Lots of things people should think more about. ^^

by Reamsie Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:51 pm

anarkandi wrote:I love how Rombomb will dissert and pick apart anything, even in the bubble bath.

I actually agree on privacy invasion, haha, children should be able to tell their parents anything, but on some point it is good to keep spaces were kids can be themselves without their parents finding out. I think it's good for developing your distance and having safe spaces sometimes. Otherwise the kids will find other ways of creating these safe spaces, and they will resist you alot on it.

Otherwise, nice contract. Lots of things people should think more about. ^^

I know and I engaged anyway. *facepalm*

I apologize to everyone else for participating in the derailment of this thread.

by Reamsie Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:21 pm

rombomb, I am simply too tired to go back through and pick apart another post. I don't even know why you felt it was necessary to pick apart a list that was just a fun share except that it seems to be the way you communicate and interact with everyone here. It is like anything that deviates even a little from your belief system you treat as some kind of attack and rip it apart and beat it to death.

The world is a big place. People are entitled to different opinions and different approaches to how they view and handle things. This is what makes the world go around.

Let me assure you (and everyone else) that my children have plenty of privacy and I am not Mussollini. My children have quite a degree of privacy. However, I am their mother and I will check up on them IF I FEEL IT IS NECESSARY. I don't kick in doors.

However, (and I will use one of these emergency analogies that rombomb is so fond of) if one of my children ever get in trouble or disappears I will not have to waste precious hours trying to convince fb to let me into their messages or figuring out what might be their cellphone password in order to read texts to gather clues as to whether they may be danger.

I do not try to avoid my responsibility to them by NOT having the deciding vote when we disagree. I have had plenty of experience with parents who talk and talk and talk, but don't actually parent. Both as a mother, a volunteer and as a secretary in the legal system. It would be great if children were born with the reasoning capacity of a 37 year old, but they are not and it is a parent's job to guide them and at times that involves actual decisions they don't like. And yes, I do decide what the consequences will be if consequences are needed. Do I make mistakes as a parent, of course I do, guess what I have never walked on water and don't think I ever will.

rombomb we just have different approaches. If what you do works for you, great. That's awesome. However, that does not make the way I choose to parent wrong. So go forth my son, be happy.

by rombomb Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:34 pm

Reamsie wrote:rombomb, I am simply too tired to go back through and pick apart another post. I don't even know why you felt it was necessary to pick apart a list that was just a fun share

I had fun. I didn't know this was your personal stuff. You said you found it on the internet. I wouldn't have said anything if you had said you made it.

Reamsie wrote:
except that it seems to be the way you communicate and interact with everyone here. It is like anything that disseminates even a little from your belief system you treat as some kind of attack and rip it apart and beat it to death.

I don't understand why you are using metaphors of violence. I'm truth-seeking and there is no place for violence in truth-seeking. We shouldn't blur the line between violence and non-violence.

Reamsie wrote:
The world is a big place. People are entitled to different opinions and different approaches to how they view and handle things. This is what makes the world go around.

Yes tolerance of dissent is good (aka liberalism), not just between posters online, but also between parent and child.

by Reamsie Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:52 pm

Reamsie wrote: except that it seems to be the way you communicate and interact with everyone here. It is like anything that disseminates even a little from your belief system you treat as some kind of attack and rip it apart and beat it to death.

rombomb wrote:I don't understand why you are using metaphors of violence. I'm truth-seeking and there is no place for violence in truth-seeking. We shouldn't blur the line between violence and non-violence.

I know you don't see it that way, so let's just say your style comes across as aggressive. As the self professed seeker of knowledge that you are take this knowledge and use it for good. Very Happy

by rombomb Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:08 am

Reamsie wrote:
Reamsie wrote: except that it seems to be the way you communicate and interact with everyone here. It is like anything that disseminates even a little from your belief system you treat as some kind of attack and rip it apart and beat it to death.
rombomb wrote:I don't understand why you are using metaphors of violence. I'm truth-seeking and there is no place for violence in truth-seeking. We shouldn't blur the line between violence and non-violence.

I know you don't see it that way, so let's just say your style comes across as aggressive. As the self professed seeker of knowledge that you are take this knowledge and use it for good.

Do you have some suggestions for changes to my style so that it seems not aggressive?

Or...

I'm guessing there are some traditions that I'm not following, since I'm ignorant of them (or I know them but didn't realize to apply them here). For example, maybe I should be replying critically to a post only if the poster I'm replying to asked for critical thinking (aka s/he clearly identified that they have a preference for critical discussion about said topic).

I'm coming from a forum whose whole purpose is critical thinking; which means that I don't need to think about which threads shouldn't be replied to with critical ideas. I think that way of thinking doesn't work here. I should think of online places like brick-and-mortar places -- in some places (or situations), the people involved don't want critical thinking.

by Nucky Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:52 pm

rombomb wrote:
I'm coming from a forum whose whole purpose is critical thinking; which means that I don't need to think about which threads shouldn't be replied to with critical ideas. I think that way of thinking doesn't work here. I should think of online places like brick-and-mortar places -- in some places (or situations), the people involved don't want critical thinking.

At the first forum I've ever been on (also the only forum in which I've regularly participated for years), sick humor was the norm. Pretty much nothing was off-limits, at least during that era. Then the second forum I regularly participated in was the AIMOO HSP forum. I was accustomed to the rules of that first forum, so you could imagine how that turned out.

by rombomb Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:29 pm

Nucky wrote:
rombomb wrote:
I'm coming from a forum whose whole purpose is critical thinking; which means that I don't need to think about which threads shouldn't be replied to with critical ideas. I think that way of thinking doesn't work here. I should think of online places like brick-and-mortar places -- in some places (or situations), the people involved don't want critical thinking.

At the first forum I've ever been on (also the only forum in which I've regularly participated for years), sick humor was the norm. Pretty much nothing was off-limits, at least during that era. Then the second forum I regularly participated in was the AIMOO HSP forum. I was accustomed to the rules of that first forum, so you could imagine how that turned out.

lol, I remember playing cards with some guys that would shit-talk each other to try to make each other make more mistakes. At first it got to me, but then I got used to it and was able to participate. Then later I played cards with some other people, and they didn't do that stuff at all. Imagine how that turned out. Smile

In response, one of them called me a jerk (it was a friend of mine that said it). I took it well and explained that I used to play with people that shit-talked each other. He didn't say anything in response though.

Anyway, lesson learned. Different social contexts have different traditions.

by anarkandi Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:43 am

rombomb wrote:
Do you have some suggestions for changes to my style so that it seems not aggressive?

Just as you, I seek to question and learn and grow people, and doing this may come of as criticism, agressive or angry. Even the statement "you are wrong" is an agressive statement, even if it's not the intent to hurt another person.

This does not mean that you should not tell people they are wrong, but add some nonviolent markers that, whilst I seek to question, I also listen, such as:

"Interesting thread. I like this, but I would work on X.." "I think you're right about that, but I'm not sure Y is correct. This is because.." This means I reward positive behavior and disagree with negative behavior, and I'm forced to consider the other persons viewpoint. Listen to what they say, as if I would have been the person saying it. That helps me build logical bridges so that the other person can join me on my side (the right side!)

by Alethia Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:29 am

Being yourself...you learn who engages and who doesnt..to me thats the best lesson of what works for you.....unless of course your willing to receive some criticism of others truth...

I tend to feel that truth is truth how ever it is shared......how your respond in your own is partly the key...and responding is always a choice..

by rombomb Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:58 pm

anarkandi wrote:
rombomb wrote:
Do you have some suggestions for changes to my style so that it seems not aggressive?

Just as you, I seek to question and learn and grow people, and doing this may come of as criticism, aggressive or angry. Even the statement "you are wrong" is an aggressive statement, even if it's not the intent to hurt another person.

I don't understand. Consider this hypothetical:

A driver says I think there's no cars to my right so I'll change lanes, and a passenger says "You are wrong, there is a car there."

Aggression, from merriam webster is defined as:

> 1 : a forceful action or procedure (as an unprovoked attack) especially when intended to dominate or master
>
> 2 : the practice of making attacks or encroachments; especially : unprovoked violation by one country of the territorial integrity of another
>
> 3 : hostile, injurious, or destructive behavior or outlook especially when caused by frustration

You're wrong that any of these characterizations can reasonably be attributed to "You are wrong, there is a car there." Do you agree?

What is hostile about it? What is domineering about it? What is injurious about it? What is destructive about it?

anarkandi wrote:
This does not mean that you should not tell people they are wrong, but add some nonviolent markers that, whilst I seek to question, I also listen, such as:

"Interesting thread. I like this, but I would work on X.." "I think you're right about that, but I'm not sure Y is correct. This is because.." This means I reward positive behavior and disagree with negative behavior, and I'm forced to consider the other persons viewpoint. Listen to what they say, as if I would have been the person saying it. That helps me build logical bridges so that the other person can join me on my side (the right side!)

You're talking about adding wrapper around content.

The content is:

- "X is wrong because of reasons A, B, C."

And you're suggesting that a person adds a wrapper of something like:

- "Interesting post but I disagree with something. I believe that..."

So then the whole sentence becomes:

- "Interesting post but I disagree with something. I believe that X is wrong because of reasons A, B, C."

Looks like a waste of time and screen-space. Why not everybody just assume the obvious which is that the wrapper is already there, kinda like we write "1*x" as "x", omitting the 1 since its obvious and a time and space saver, and it has no effect on the content at all.

If I'm replying to a post, of course I'm interested. And when I say X is wrong, of course I mean that I believe X is wrong, and that I could be wrong about my belief, since all people are fallible, and thus could be wrong about any one of our ideas/beliefs/values/etc.

by anarkandi Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:47 pm

rombomb wrote:
Looks like a waste of time and screen-space. Why not everybody just assume the obvious which is that the wrapper is already there, kinda like we write "1*x" as "x", omitting the 1 since its obvious and a time and space saver, and it has no effect on the content at all.

If I'm replying to a post, of course I'm interested. And when I say X is wrong, of course I mean that I believe X is wrong, and that I could be wrong about my belief, since all people are fallible, and thus could be wrong about any one of our ideas/beliefs/values/etc.

Hmm, I find it is not a waste of time but something which helps me reach out to people and get them to consider my argument, but it also allows me to see their argument in new light. What does it mean to me? How does it feel? Where are they coming from when they say this?

Imagine that humans are like machines, but they just need a fair amount of hugging and petting and complimenting because we can be insecure and uncertain as to how others perceive us. Alot of us haven't learnt to handle criticism without at the same time feeling like we're shit. That may get us overly defensive. We may feel we haven't written out anything angry, and we haven't, but people paint in the empty canvass on their own, people have learnt to associate negative feedback with feelings of being disliked or attacked, so we have to speak out that we mean well, or people will misunderstand us.

by rombomb Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:41 pm

anarkandi wrote:
rombomb wrote:
Looks like a waste of time and screen-space. Why not everybody just assume the obvious which is that the wrapper is already there, kinda like we write "1*x" as "x", omitting the 1 since its obvious and a time and space saver, and it has no effect on the content at all.

If I'm replying to a post, of course I'm interested. And when I say X is wrong, of course I mean that I believe X is wrong, and that I could be wrong about my belief, since all people are fallible, and thus could be wrong about any one of our ideas/beliefs/values/etc.

Hmm, I find it is not a waste of time but something which helps me reach out to people and get them to consider my argument,

You're right about that. If my readers think that I'm arrogant, or that I think I have absolute truth and can't be wrong, then ya adding some wrapper like *I hold the belief that* in front of content like *X is true because of reasons A, B, C*, is useful to reduce confusion.

But, the same wrapper can also cause confusion because some people think that *I believe X* is equivalent to *X is my opinion and not a fact*, which is a misinterpretation of what I mean. And had I said *X is true*, those same people would correctly interpret that I'm calling X a fact, not just my opinion.

anarkandi wrote:
but it also allows me to see their argument in new light. What does it mean to me? How does it feel? Where are they coming from when they say this?

I'm confused by that. How does you adding wrapper to your content help you see their side? (Maybe I lost some of the context of your original reply.)

BTW, that parenthetical I added is wrapper, but in some cases its important and can be a sort of meta-content, because its helping you understand why I am confused by your idea.

anarkandi wrote:
Imagine that humans are like machines, but they just need a fair amount of hugging and petting and complimenting because we can be insecure and uncertain as to how others perceive us. Alot of us haven't learnt to handle criticism without at the same time feeling like we're shit.

Well, most criticism that people do is the bad kind, e.g. personal attacks, hostility towards dissent, unexplained assertions, etc. These things are destructive. No learning at all.

The good kind of criticism is explanations of flaws in ideas. These are constructive because its part of learning.

anarkandi wrote:
That may get us overly defensive. We may feel we haven't written out anything angry, and we haven't, but people paint in the empty canvass on their own, people have learnt to associate negative feedback with feelings of being disliked or attacked, so we have to speak out that we mean well, or people will misunderstand us.

Note that:

Negative feedback is a reasonable characterization of bad criticism.

Positive feedback is a reasonable characterization of good criticism.

Negative feedback is not a reasonable characterization of good criticism.

Positive feedback is not a reasonable characterization of bad criticism.

Do you agree?

by anarkandi Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:18 am

rombomb wrote:
But, the same wrapper can also cause confusion because some people think that *I believe X* is equivalent to *X is my opinion and not a fact*, which is a misinterpretation of what I mean. And had I said *X is true*, those same people would correctly interpret that I'm calling X a fact, not just my opinion.

That's true. If you believe strongly that something is true, then you can say that. I'm not saying you should compromise what you feel is right, but rather always be attentive to the others viewpoint.

rombomb wrote:

I'm confused by that. How does you adding wrapper to your content help you see their side? (Maybe I lost some of the context of your original reply.)

It adds on to what I'm saying about wrappers. Wrappers are not there just because "they are social convention" but because it is about teaching yourself to be attentive and open to others arguments at all times, even when you hold strong views in another direction. This is about learning to see where others are coming from so that you can build bridges for them to join you at your side (the right one, ofcourse)

by rombomb Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:06 am

anarkandi wrote:
rombomb wrote:
But, the same wrapper can also cause confusion because some people think that *I believe X* is equivalent to *X is my opinion and not a fact*, which is a misinterpretation of what I mean. And had I said *X is true*, those same people would correctly interpret that I'm calling X a fact, not just my opinion.

That's true. If you believe strongly that something is true, then you can say that.

I don't agree with characterizing my beliefs as "believing strongly" in them. I don't. I believe an idea because I currently do not have a criticism of it. There is no strength in it.

But, sometimes I believe an idea, but I have a gut feeling that it might be wrong, in which case I would say that I am conflicted about that idea, since I have conscious ideas saying its right, but I have subconscious ideas saying its wrong. For clarity, a "gut feeling" is an indication of a subconscious idea.

anarkandi wrote:
I'm not saying you should compromise what you feel is right, but rather always be attentive to the others viewpoint.

Yes, and why? See below.

anarkandi wrote:
rombomb wrote:
I'm confused by that. How does you adding wrapper to your content help you see their side? (Maybe I lost some of the context of your original reply.)

It adds on to what I'm saying about wrappers. Wrappers are not there just because "they are social convention" but because it is about teaching yourself to be attentive and open to others arguments at all times, even when you hold strong views in another direction. This is about learning to see where others are coming from so that you can build bridges for them to join you at your side (the right one, ofcourse)

Yes, but that is what is meant by the idea that shielding one's ideas from criticism is bad.

Any one of my ideas could be wrong. My ideas are one's that my self-criticism hasn't (yet) discovered any flaws with. It could be that I'm rationalizing due to an anti-rational meme, for example. So, if someone else finds a flaw in an idea of mine, then I ***want*** him to point it out to me, so that I can learn that I'm wrong. And the way to point it out, is to explain the flaw in my idea.

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